Topic: Lane Hardin - California Desert Blues

[uncle bud]

From a moderator's perspective, I think a point needs to be made here regarding the amount of videos or sound files posted by anyone. In the past year or so, Nate has posted one video or so a month, sometimes less and, yes, occasionally more. I'll be clear here: THIS IS NOT A LOT. He has sometimes shared material in various stages of refinement, sometimes said straight out that the piece needs work and posted a follow-up, sometimes posted polished performance-level material, and he has always been receptive to comments and discussions of his work, whether it's about time, rhythm, harmony, riffs, tuning, etc. He has in fact solicited those comments. In short, everything he's done represents what the Back Porch is all about.

That moderator stuff out of the way, on a personal level, the natural voice argument holds no water with me, since by that logic one needs to do away with Tom Waits, Bob Dylan in many various incarnations, most of the British Invasion, a whole pile of country and bluegrass, not to mention the blues and hillbilly singers others have cited, as well as Charley Patton, Buddy Boy Hawkins, Big Boy Teddy Edwards, Ishmon Bracey, William Harris, King Solomon Hill, and others too numerable to contemplate. Rather than look at this as a question of artificially reproducing sounds of a specific bygone time and place, it seems to me more a question of imposing modern sensibilities on music that doesn't have to work that way. Shouldn't Corey Harris sound more like he's from Colorado? Frankly, I wish a few more people wouldn't sing in their natural voices and make music that is so damn smoothed out and public radio friendly.  I don't recall any consensus about earning voices either, which seems to me a romantic view, or perhaps a political one for some (not saying it is for cheapfeet or anyone else in this thread). Either way, I don't buy it. The point about someone singing "black" has been dealt with by Taj Mahal: it's almost the whole history of American popular music. (The point about the other guy is a red herring - Stuart addresses that and anything else is bullshit that happened later in flame wars.)

I'm with Scratchy, I also subscribe to Nate's youtube channel, look forward to the new songs and would buy a CD in a flash.

[lindy]

I'm also in the "I like bayrum's voice" camp, but I understand that it might not be everyone's latte. I also think it's the wrong thing to talk about.

My appreciation for Nate's videos is many-fold. He chooses tunes that in my experience are pretty obscure; he brings them back to life, where otherwise they might just stay obscure. He obviously is not working from tab or a video, but working things out with his own ear, sometimes asking for help from this fine community, and many times adding his own little twist that makes a song his own. And he's clearly made the effort to figure out the vocabulary of country blues, to the point that I can learn a lot by watching his vids (translation: I can steal licks from him by the barrel, so can anyone else). I think these things overshadow any question about vocals.

The fact that he records his songs with a high-tech cam and uploads them for all to see makes up for the fact that we can't hang with him around his kitchen table and watch him close-up.

Lindy

[Shovel]

If somebody posted a recipe for a dish on here, and someone replied 'I just dont think its right to mix brown sugar and paprika in a recipe', no feelings would be hurt.  There's no great arbiters anywhere to my knowledge.  All criticism can be learned from. If the original poster was shocked that someone could feel this way about the vocals, its good he knows it because I doubt that opinion is limited to one person.  That said, I enjoyed the performance.

[bayrum78]

cheapfeet- While I strongly disagree with your charge that my vocals are affected, I will acknowledge that I, just as the original performers were, have been influenced by old timey and CB vocal techniques. I feel that I appropriate vocal techniques in a personal way and think there is nothing disrespectful or affected in doing so. I don't see why a blues vocal rendition has to sound polite and modern or why you apply this criterion only to the voice and not to the instrument being played. Using the same logic couldn't playing country fingerstyle blues guitar be considered affected and disrespectful because you aren't black and Southern and weren't born in 1900? I am trying to get a feel for where and why you are drawing boundaries that I obviously disagree with, but that also seem arbitrarily selective. If Roscoe Holcomb had been born in 1990 and posted his excellent version of Swannanoa Tunnel on The Back Porch would you categorically say it impossible (!!) for him to sing that way because of when he was born, Over the top shocking, affected in bad taste and disrespectful? Or would it depend on whether or not he was born in Kentucky and whether he lived in the city? In fact, Roscoe didn't write the song and didn't experience the building of the tunnel but was able nevertheless sing the song with great authority. I couldn't care less  where or when he came from, what his livelihood was or what his influences were that resulted in him singing in his personally emotive and distinctive way. He could have been from Beijing, China for all I care.  Rock and Roll was around in the 1960's and yet Roscoe sang the old way. There were many other local musicians in his same age range who grew up under the same conditions and yet chose to reflect the contemporary qualities of the music they heard on the radio. What I am saying is that how you sound is a very personal decision. Among other things, how you sound is a combination of your genetics, your listening and vocal range/capabilities, and the choices you make based on your aesthetic sensibilities. Without offering an explanation, it is cathartic for me to sing the way I do, sort of like a coping mechanism and I just wouldn't get the emotional release I need by singing any other way.  This approach sounds traditional to my ears, which is pleasing to me and I don't offer any apologies for recreating the sounds that I like to hear that are similar to the old blues vocalists whose styles I admire and am influenced by. I am hoping that we can respectfully just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I will say that I won't be changing the way I sing WITH MY VOICE, and that if you choose to continue listening to my videos, you will continue hearing the same sort of thing.

As far as the number of posts I submit on The Backporch, I am not aware of any a timeframe based cap or limit, But if there is one, I certainly will respect that. Rightly or wrongly, I think of new posts as fresh new content that drives people for return visits to the site. Although I am not opposed to linking to my Youtube channel, I feel the content when posted rather than linked to within a profile is more conveniently  shared, discussed and hopefully enjoyed by weenie members and that as long as the physical server resources aren't being over-utilized by a member, isn't monopolizing and/or abusive. I am pretty sure that my resource footprint given that it is html-based is pretty minimal. Because I play mostly at home for family and friends, I don't consider myself to be a professional and therefore consider The Backporch to be the most appropriate place to post my material.  Lastly, I do want friendly feedback and constructive

criticism as I like every other musician strive to improve on my musicianship. But descriptions like "shocking", "affected" and "over the top" seem to be less about the actual musical quality and more about enforcing social and performance norms that you misrepresent as being respectful to the tradition.

To everyone else - thanks for the supportive or fair-minded critique. I had no idea my perfomances would become a flash point for contoversy and I would sincerely regret being a source  of divisiveness within the weenie community.

[blueshome]

Bayrum, you are not the cause of divisiveness, our diverse opinions are.

[CF]

Yep, I went about that the wrong way. Can I say that I was speaking in my 'rhetorical' voice?
The girlfriend doesn't buy that one either.

There are a couple responses here that I think are more personal & petty than critical. As if I'm some troll & not, actually, a long-time member here who has shown, I think, knowledge, insight & a true love &, dare I say, familiarity with this music. And, of course, a sometimes disrespectful manner. My asshole really comes out for particular topics or occasions.
The fact that I'm not really a blues singer or artist but probably a pop-singer-songwriter who happens also to be a pre-war blues nut maybe gives me a different slant on the whole genre & on music-making.
 
All of the above cited artists who may have dealt in a vocal manipulation did one very important thing: they excelled, they made magic. If I had met a 19 year old Bob Dylan I would have said the exact same thing to him as I've said to Bayrum. Dylan DID overly affect a voice, especially when he was younger. He stole Woody Guthrie's voice (exaggerating to make a point) . . . & if I had met a young Dylan, or if he posted here in the back porch I would maybe wonder out loud 'Where did you pick up that voice man, it can't possibly be yours!?' Who cares what Dylan would become, I can't worry about altering my opinion of Bayrum's voice because he might become Bob Dylan someday. Before Bob wrote good songs he was a young, average folk singer trying to sound old & wise beyond his years. His voice & its affectation became less of a matter when he became an above-average songwriter & a better interpreter of folk music. In my opinion, a certain level of excellence & style in delivery are the magic cure-all's for this situation: is it REALLY good? Bayrum may be the voice of a new generation but I can't factor that into my honest response to his current performance style.

Somewhere in the back & forth here I became a purveyor of 'smooth' 'polite' blues singing (!?) & a 'purist' & I think my point is almost being over-literalized here: I OF COURSE believe that a person can sing in an interesting & creative & wildly different -than-their-speaking voice-country-of origin-accent . . . imagine what I'd lose as a fan of a wide variety of music if I was so anal! That my criticism of a very genre-specific performance, factoring in that I play this music, that I own & listen to the records that Bayrum covers, that Bayrum sings in an oldtime style means that this criticism CAN BE specific to this performance & performer . . . . suggesting that I somehow meant everything musical 'across-the-board' comes off as willfully misunderstanding the point guys.

I do think the vocal has a different criteria than the guitar Re: authenticity in style. A guitar is something you learn to play after you learn to speak. Your vocal chords play in your blessed throat, not on a piece of exterior wood & metal. They MUST have a different criteria . . . or would anyone here allow that they COULD?

Roscoe Holcomb could not have been born in the 1990s. These points make no sense!! You cannot arbitrarily place these people outside of their time & place, they do not exist there.
There is a whole lot of backwards logic or something going on in this discussion.

Taking so much umbrage with my language & my uncouth manner when the philosophical stake is so much more important is just depressing to me. Be careful of onset gentility, it's a killer. Eats up Blues ozone and all that bad stuff.

I have a lot more to say about this point I'm making & nothing more to say about Bayrum's particular performances except this: I think you have great taste in music & just need to grow more as a vocalist. At this point you are imitating too much but you'll probably find your own voice in there somewhere, good luck.

[Rivers]

I believe Nate has already addressed all your points quite well, cheapfeet. And I very much doubt he aspires to "become Bob Dylan someday". What a terrible fate that would be, since there are already so many of them out there.

I respect and endorse the OP's right, actually responsibility, to play it exactly the way he feels it. And anyone here who gets a burr up their butt about... whatever, is totally entitled to not listen to anything posted, and can easily refrain from commenting. Advocating that somebody "grow more as a vocalist" comes across as sheer hubris. Everybody grows, including you, cheapfeet, and everybody has their own schedule.

Aiming for mass popular appeal on WC is not and never will be a requirement. In fact the opposite applies. Keep on trucking.

[ScottN]

Hi all, longtime listener first time caller.  From my perspective as someone who has such a horrible singing voice that I never get to experience the joy of singing with (or near) other people, if I could "affect" my voice to sound one tenth as good as bayrum78 I'm sure I'd enjoy this music of ours even more than I do now...if it's his natural voice or if he models it to suit his own ear and or stylistic desires, God bless him either way for sharing his music and the obvious joy he brings to it.

Mr. Cheapfeet, you express the same point about your belief that the voice is "affected" in both your first and last post and seem to disregard input from the actual source that this is his voice.  From the outside looking in this doesn't seem to be a critical dialogue or constructive exchange of ideas but merely a redundant restatement of an apparent hangup you have over people who you believe alter their voices.  I get it...you don't like it...let it go.

[colm kill paul]

I always felt that the back porch was a safe place to show my best effort even if when it's below par and I,d hate for us to lose that.

A technical question then on Bayrum,s vocal: is it in tune?

colm

[alyoung]

Well now, I'd like to get away from all this on Mr Bayrum's voice. He's doing what he does, and that's it. But Bayrum, if I could make a suggestion: I've watched a few of your videos since I became a Weenie, and one thing that has struck me is that you always seem very tense. My one-word suggestion: Relax. It's a lesson that took me nearly 40 years to learn, but even many of those we think of as really driving blues players -- Booker White and  Johnny Shines are two good examples -- are actually quite relaxed and playing well within their limits when you see them perrform. It's just a suggestion, mind, but I'm sure you'd find benefits in just sitting back and letting it roll out, rather than sitting forward and pushing.

[bayrum78]

cheapfeet-

I really feel like I am flogging a dead horse here but when you continue to sling mud at me don't expect me to turn the other cheek. I return to my original statement which is: why do you presume to know what I actually sound like when you have never met me? You will recall that this topic first reared its ugly head after I posted Nappy Headed Blues on the backporch.

One poster who has met me clearly stated that my singing voice is a natural extension of my speaking voice. However, you apparently refused to believe him too.  As pointed out before, I appropriate the vocal techniques of the Old Time and CB players and press it through a head tone.

You say that I am trying to sound like some disembodied old timer. Bob Dylan tried to sound like Woody Guthrie. Can you say who exactly I am trying to sound like? No. Why? Because I am not trying to sound like anyone else. I have been told I sound like several other OT/CB singers but what people are hearing are the same vocal techniques those singers used, not the singer's voice.

Although I strongly believe folks can choose to sing however they want regardless of their lineages, has it ever occurred to you that maybe the reason I sound this way is because my family is from Southwest, Virginia and North Carolina both of which have always been strongholds for this music? Until relocating west of Richmond looking for non-agricultural work, my parents farmed tobacco as did their parents and their parents parents for as many generations as I have been able to trace. And I unfortunately know first hand about being poor and grew up in a single wide trailer way out in the woods surrounded by logging trails and abandoned coal mining shafts which served as my childhood sandbox. The difficult conditions under which poor people live then and now is not drastically different. No money=no money=hard times. It doesn't matter when people are poor they experience the same things.and struggle to get by and feel the same things the same way. Through a combination of friends,family, fortune and personal effort, I have been able to claw my way out of that pit but the legacy and aftermath of that hand to mouth upbringing still haunts me and That is at least in part why I like the high lonesome style - It is music therapy.

Although I expect you will obstinately continue to refuse to acknowledge that my voice is my actual voice despite the fact that I have presented a lot of relevant information that backs up my claim, I can live with the fact that we just agree to disagree.
I only ask that you show a little respect for others and think you would do well to not draw conclusions about people you don't
know, have never met, and not prepoulate someone else's background and experiences to fit what you think you already know because it squares nicely with generalizations you hold dear. It will not reflect favorably upon you and may even backfire.

[Rivers]

Everything's cool folks. I think we all understand each other now.

Probably best to continue any discussions of the process of arriving at one's vocal style (or lack thereof in my own case) over to dj's thread: http://weeniecampbell.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=8284.msg67086;topicseen#msg67086

Thanks for starting that dj. It's an interesting discussion deserving a topic in its own right since it applies to all of us.

Al, that's great advice. Jerry Ricks told me the same thing at Port Townsend one year. Sometimes I can do it, and always enjoy myself and play / perform better.