Topic: Re: Get Away Blues

[CF]

DS, let me be the first here to offer some constructive criticism:

Your guitar playing is stellar but i would suggest maybe toning down the vibrato a bit on your voice, I think it has a Joan Baez-folk type quality that doesn't compliment prewar blues that well . . .

Also, it certainly is nice to see the Back Porch artists in video performance but in my opinion there can be too much a thing of over-emoting into the camera, what some might call 'mugging', altho' I am not necessarily . . .

3rdly while your array of expensive guitars & blues memorabilia is impressive I don't think they lend to the presentaion, necessarily, of traditional & acoustic North Americana music . . . music that was created by people of significantly humbler means . . .

Having said all this you certainly are very good at what you do . . . I thought that maybe some of the pointed criticism offered by several other Weenies to the other members' Back Porch posts would perhaps be beneficial to you.

When in Rome . . . 

[daddystovepipe]

Cheapfeet,
I'm not as eloquent as you are (I'm Belgian) so I'll keep it simple.
You say your criticism is constructive but ...

I have vibrato in my voice, yes, but it's my voice as it is, so I can't change that.  I don't think vibrato is a "folk-only" thing.  There are plenty of prewar bluesgreats with lotsa more vibrato than me.

"Over-emoting" in the camera.   I  heard and read many times about bluesgreats telling that "blues is a feeling".   That's how I experience it and that's how I express it; I don't have to force myself to do this, it comes natural for me and when you express feeling it shows in your face (especially mine; eg I almost asways clos my eyes when singing - I know that's wrong but I can't help it - a friens once said : Carl plays with his eyebrows...). I have great admiration for Buster Keaton's stonedface but I just can't do it singing the blues...
There's little original blues material in film but I still get cold chills when I hear and see Bessy Smith singing St Louis Blues.  Was she over-emoting when she lay on the ground, facing the camera and burst into a "My man's got a heart..."  What to think about Son House with his veins popping out when he performs...

"expensive guitars....music that was creating by people of humbler means" : you're right about that but does that mean that I should get (a now expensive) cheap Stella and sit in my rundown backyard gardenshed to play the blues...would it then be ok ?
Fact is that country blues is kept alive by middle aged men (mostly filthy rich compared to your "people of humbler means") who like to bs about expensive guitars and buy memorabilia (what to say about that cool calendar you can buy to support Weenie).  I hope you'll never visit the PT workshop because you would be disgusted seeing all those expensive guitars played by well off people (and singing the blues on top of that :-). 
I don't think I'm disrespectful showing Blind Blake's picture when singing one of his songs. I had nothing but good reactions about this.  It's just creating some scenery, nothing more.  Anyway, I think most people prefer Blake's picture to the kitchen sink ...and it diverts attention from all the mistakes I make :-)

"pointed criticism" this paragraph is a bit shady for me - language barrier I suppose - or do you mean that for some reason weenies criticise others and not me, so I don't get what I deserve?

Through your lines I get the feeling that you are uncomfortable seeing a white man (well off of course) playing and singing "poor people's music" and showing emotion along the way.  I think this topic (is a white man allowed to sing the blues) has been discussed endlessly elswhere so I'll leave it with that (he fact that I do what I do says enough).   

When in Rome...I know what it means but I don't see the relevance here...

Nevertheless, thanks for letting me know all this.
Carl

[Peghead Howell]

Very nice Carl,,,, and continue to be who you are, I haven't heard too many Robert Wilkens songs played by others,,, really good.!!.. Mike

[CF]

I think maybe you've misunderstood the tone of my reply Carl & maybe the nature of the Back Porch.
Part of my intention was to offer criticism to a musician who's only gotten kudos thus far for his material . . . & I too offered kudos, several times. But one of the features of the Back Porch, in fact THE IDEA altogether is not simply to showcase how & what you play but to get reaction & helpful criticism, in fact I have read somewhere here on the Back Porch where you were giving critical opinions of Lonewolf's vocals & I was simply offering a similar type criticism. I had posted many pieces previously on the Back Porch & got many types of kudos & criticism & always was happy to receive them.
As far as your emoting, perhaps that is just a particular taste of my own, it certainly has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR NATIONALITY OR RACE . . . in fact bringing that up at all is kind of unfair, I nowhere eluded to that being an issue. & I would say that I am one hell of an emoter myself . . . but Carl, we are none of us Bessie Smith or Son House, NOT ONE. I'd have to be one sad cat to think that all emoting is tasteless. I think what I was suggesting is that with the number of videos you are offering & the kind of intimate set-up you are shooting them in I personally felt it was a bit much . . . but, again, that is perhaps more just my personal taste is all.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with expensive instruments or blues memorablilia, in fact If I had the money I would definitely love to own a quality instrument or a Charlie Patton shirt to show my blues pride . . . my comments were more aimed at your blues presentation as authentic & tasteful because, as I said, I feel your guitar playing is stellar, really above-average & I just thought that if maybe you worked on other elements of your presentation you could be even better . . . & you are correct: country blues now seems to be the domain of middle-class well-off white men . . . doesn't mean therein lie the blues' best players tho'. . .
When in Rome . . . members such as Waxwing & Uncle Bud & Pan & Parlor Picker etc. have always offered criticism to Back Porch posters that may not be flattering but it seems sometimes people here have strong opinions about another's style or performance & feel the need to speak their mind . . . Do as the Romans do. 

[Rivers]

You all suck! And so do I!

[Mr.Natural]

Hey Cheapfeet, this is Mr. Natural at the rescue...

Although Carl's my good guitar buddy, I'm not going to respond to the criticism you offered on his vibrating and his emoting. This is a matter of opinion and you're certainly entitled to one. After I read Carl's reply, I couldn' help imagining him rolling on the ground next to Bessie Smith as Son House looked on with bulging eyes. That alone made my day.

I do have 3 points to make:
-   I don't want to get into a semantic argument but simply putting the word 'positive' in front of the word 'criticism' doesn't result in positive criticism, it's merely a rhetorical device. And in all fairness, your use of the word 'array' does have a slight negative or derisory connotation (to me anyway).
-   What gets me worried is your statement that Carl's 'array of expensive guitars & blues memorabilia' does not lend itself to music that was created by 'people of significantly humbler means'. Am I sinning against the prewar blues ethic by using a Collings guitar, a cd-player, an iPod and my iMac to discuss all this on the internet?  I can't see anything wrong with using what you got as long as you're not bragging about it. I guess Robert Johnson would have driven a Terraplane if the devil had included one in the deal.  I'd feel a hypocrite if I played a cheap guitar while I could afford a better instrument.
-    I do understand (if I read you correctly and you really can't afford a $ 14,95 Patton T-shirt), that the sight of these expensive Greven's and Brauchli's unnerves you. Every time I go to visit Carl on his luxurious ranch in the north of Belgium, and I see his fleet of limo's parked in front and his harem of blondes reclining on vast waterbeds, I have to swallow too. Not to mention when I hear him playing stellarly...
 

Cheapfeet, I'm writing this as your Down the dirt road blues and your Pony Blues are playing on my iTunes. Great vocal on Pony Blues.

Ed
(Belgians unite!)

[CF]

What seems to be the problem here is that Carl has never been criticized before & now i'm having to suffer for a practise that is common here on Weenie's Back Porch. Maybe take this up with the administration.

What I meant by Carl's 'array' of guitars & videos & memorabilia is that it borders on ostentation, for me, & I would say that overt attention to instruments, whether it be constant fiddling with them or coveting of their beauty or quality takes away from the real work of being a bluesman: & that is living your life a certain way, bringing it out to the people of the world & as Frank Zappa once said, shutting up & playing your guitar. I'm not a hobbyist: I am currently solely employed as a musician. Carl gets kudos from a lot of hobbyists & enthusiasts, I was offering the opinion of one who does it for a very humble living.

I can't afford an expensive guitar & I live in a place where Charlie Patton shirts aren't sold . . . & no Ccard fer the internet . . . but these points are meaningless . . .

My criticism may have been pointed but it was 'positive' in that i think Carl's vocals would have to better to make him a top-notch blues musician. & remember, he offered the same kind of criticism himself to Lonewolf & his vocalizings . . . He can criticize & i cannot?

No hard feelings, good luck to Carl . . . as a working musician tho' I get way more devastating criticism sometimes, like empty rooms or people who ask me to play Clapton or Stevie Ray (or that grand old chestnut, 'Play something good!!') when i'm offering Leadbelly . . . or those who say I'm not playing Blues!! 
 
I'm glad you enjoyed my 'Pony' but i only remember recording a single verse of the song . . . if you have access to my other old (& now deleted for personal reasons . . . internet paranoia . . . big brother is watching) recordings from Back Porch I would suggest my 'Four Til Late', 'Morning Prayer', & my originals 'Ghost of Blind Lemon' & 'Let's Be Friends' as superior attempts. God Bless     

[Janmarie]

Hey Daddy -

Excellent performance.  The quality and timber of your voice pleased me to no end and wonderfully matched and melded with the guitar.  It set a mood that I am still swimming in - can feel the tingling up and down my spine.  You Belgians rock!

Janmarie

[Rivers]

Just thought I'd remind everyone the whole point, or one of them anyway, of the BP from its early days was to solicit constructive criticism. Personally I'm not really interested in what people think of my playing ("yeah, right!" I hear you say), and I hate the whole "recording-me-for-posterity" process. So I don't post.

But if you do post you need to be prepared for whatever comes your way. Likewise, if you dish it out, be prepared to take it! 

[mmpresti]

Just a comment on this argument that's not really mine, but interests me nevertheless,

Hey, middle-aged filthy rich white-folks who believe you hold a monopoly on the country blues idiom, leave it alone, it's still a living breathing organism...

And cut out the delusions of poverty and the elitism, we're all in this blues world together. In a  different world from pre-war blues, historical criticism only brings us so far here...

[Rivers]

Nobody here believes anything of the sort, with the possible exception of yourself perhaps, mmpresti?

[waxwing]

Just my two cents, but, yeah, the original intent of the Back Porch was for folks to put up works in progress to get feedback and constructive criticism. And yeah, sometimes constructive criticism doesn't feel all that constructive, even when it is sincerely meant that way (As, I feel, it is here - Welcome back CF). I have found that there is always something to be learned from criticism if one can avoid being defensive. And if one feels that ctiticism is well off the mark, does it really need a response? That only stifles other valuable criticism.

Lately I feel that the BP has become more a place for showing off finished work, even studio recordings in some cases. This is fine, in itself, I guess, but I think it deters those who might post work in progress that is not so polished, hoping for help in figuring a difficult part or finding the right arrangement or maybe wondering what needs work the most.

I think it might be better to post more polished songs, especially if one is not looking for criticism, in the Performance Corner. Perhaps if each artist who wanted to contribute had one thread of there own and just added a new reply for each new song instead of starting a new thread each time, it would be easier for someone to peruse all their songs? To me they are more like adverts for CDs or gigs (I assume) and would be more appropriate there. This is particularly true of many of the youtube and soundclick links that I sometimes suspect are really looking for more plays.

I'm not pointing any fingers here, just noticing trends, eh? But I would like to see the BP get back to helping folks over difficult parts. A little pat on the ego doesn't hurt, a few songs perhaps to introduce yourself and let folks know the level of your play, but we really grow from criticism, which comes best from raw work, I think.

Carl, I do think you could get something if you honestly looked at what Cheapfeet is talking about. I don't think it has anything to do with "your voice", but really is more that your vocal phrasing gives an overly melodious feel to the music which to my ears is not very bluesy. It's very well done, beautiful, really, just not bluesy. And your phrasing seems to drive the emotiveness in your singing, not the meaning of the words. I actually wouldn't say you were overly emotive, but just oddly, emotively akilter. A nebulous, fine line, I admit, and one difficult to convey, but you seem to be a quality performer who should be working on the fine lines.

Sorry if this seems like piling on, but I guess I have had a sense that you actually weren't interested in criticism. Since the ice is broken here, I wanted to make the point that that is what the Back Porch is about, and that those who post should accept criticism for what it is, an honest attempt, no matter how adept or inept the critic, to be helpful. Discussion of this or that point is fine, but defensiveness is unnecessary.

As to all the guitars and such, I guess you have your target market, but don't be surprised that there are actually other sensibilities in the country blues scene. Racism? That seems a low blow.

mmpresti, I actually don't know what you said, so I can't tell if I agree or not?!?!

Like I said, Cheapfeet, welcome back. I have missed your POV, not to mention your passion for Patton, which needs no T shirt.-G-

All for now.
John C.

[Rivers]

I agree Wax, nicely put. Performance Corner and Back Porch complement each other. BP for work in progress and actively soliciting any comments, not only praise. If it's a finished work, or you don't want or need anyone to comment, PC is the venue.

[daddystovepipe]

No problem for me, I'll follow the rules and will not post on the BP again (although I think a bluessong is always a work in progress...)

Hey Waxwing, you're the first one to say I don't sound bluesy.  There has to be a first for everything I guess   This is your second extensive "guidelines explanation" if I recall and it shows that it really doesn't help much.

Administrators, I think the headers of the forumsections should be more explantatory on this. I know the guidelines are explained in the first post but it seems that most people miss it. Also the "perfomance corner" says nothing about uploading songs. 

I don't mind positive criticism if it's to the point, i.e. to the musicality/quality of the song I posted., e.g.  "Get Away Blues" , be fair, it has hardly any vibrato in it (too much vibrato is what flutists call : a "nannygoat").  I recall my first posting "Crow Jane" got some remarks on the tempo.  I took these comments with grace as they were justified : yes, I played it too fast, so it shows I can take criticism.
The "expensive" guitars etc comments had nothing to do with the music I posted and gave only air to CF embitterement with the music business in general.  CF remarks sound more like a "now it's my turn to get even" after his "issues" of a few months ago (hence his call for help from the "administration"). I can hardly call this contructive criticism.

Believe me, I learned a lot from all this.
Carl

[Slack]

Administrators, I think the headers of the forum sections should be more explanatory on this. I know the guidelines are explained in the first post but it seems that most people miss it. Also the "perfomance corner" says nothing about uploading songs.

Hi Carl, we make them as clear as we can - but sometimes the intent is not to make them so clear as to strictly classify what can or cannot be posted be posted. We try not to be control freaks.  If the postings are going in a direction that we had not intended will let you know and sometimes create new boards to house the new direction.  Performance corner is one such board.  After reading this thread and thinking about it - your Youtube links are probably more appropriate in Performance Corner as you are a polished and accomplished player who would have no problem playing in public concerts.  We'll probably move your Youtube posts to performance corner in a "Daddy Stovepipe" topic as Waxwing suggests and in that way we'll have a more concrete example of the direction we want the board to take.  Most folks in PC will have websites or links to their work, and we did not feel was necessary to explicitly state that mp3 uploads are OK.  I think most pros or aspiring pros do not want a sound file limited in 800K in size... but they can certainly post one there.

Let me talk it over with the SC to see if we can make the forum descriptions clearer.  However, I've been running online forums since the mid 80's and one thing I've learned is that no matter what, how or where you post a guideline, some folks will never read it or ignore it or interpret it differently.  We do the best we can.

Thanks,
Slack