Topic: Re: Barbecue Bob Workshop

[frankie]

My 12 capoed just plain doesn't work but it's a bit of an agricultaral implement at the best of times. It would work better without the doubled 5th and 6th and a unison set on 4th, the diff in string diameter being the cause of the unwounds to buzz/mute.

I should have piped up with this before, but I've noticed that using a capo on a 12-string with a radiused fingerboard really accentuates the string diameter problem.  With a flat fingerboard (like on the old Stellas), for some reason, you don't get as much buzz/muting with the octave courses.  I can capo the Fraulini willy-nilly, but it's impossible to capo the Harmony - forget it! 

Actually, I haven't tried using a capo since it's been strung up all weird.  Hmmm...  wonder if the new setup will be more capo-friendly?

[Ignatznochops]

So glad to have found this site. Thanks to the Most Reverend T. Cambio for turning me on to it.

I know that Barbeque Bob's playing isn't ranked up there with the greats, but I've been trying to work out his right hand technique on the 12 string with only partial success. If somebody could shed some light on the relationship between thumb and fingers and perhaps tab out (I know, I know, dang neophytes) a tune or two for posting here I'd be much obliged.

I kind of like BBQ's playing in that he gets a big noise for accompaniment without a whole lot of technical prowess, which is about where I am in my playing'

Thanks in advance.

Joe

[Slack]

Welcome to the forum Joe.

I'm not sure it would be possible to tab out BBQ Bob's right hand.  This is probably not much help, but someone commented one time that BBQ Bob used a "frailing" technique.  ..and I can hear in his playing how that might be (hard to tell for sure though).  So you might experiment around with frailing your 12 string.

Cheers,
slack

[Ignatznochops]

Sorry, frailing? I'm not much of a banjo player, don't really know what this entails. More info would be much appreciated.

Thanks for your response.

Joe

How do you insert a photo under your sign in signature, by the way?

[uncle bud]

Perhaps Frankie will pipe up on Bob's right hand, having recently experimented with his unusual string setup. I personally hear a lot of downstrokes from the thumb, and of course some thumb string-snapping...

[Slack]

Sorry, frailing? I'm not much of a banjo player, don't really know what this entails. More info would be much appreciated.

Well, basically some quick brushes with the back of your fingers.  But Uncle Bud is right - let's let frankie chime in - he posted a very BBQ-like MP3 in the back porch (if oyu have not have heard it, go download it immediately), he is also a banjo player and will ahve an good opinion on whether BBQ Bob does indeed use some kind of frailing motion.

How do you insert a photo under your sign in signature, by the way?

Click on:  Profile->Forum Profile Information   ...and you'll see where you can insert a photo (called "avatars").  We've got a few R. Crumb ones you can choose from, or go find one on your own and upload it to the forum.

Cheers,
slack

[frankie]

I'm not sure I have a whole lot of light to shed on the issue - I'm still scratching the surface with BBQ Bob and have been distracted lately by a mean Lemon fixation.? I'm not sure that the word "frailing" is helpful beyond generally describing his picking style as relying on some heavy strumming in some places.? Frailing is a term that can mean any number of different picking styles - I think I remember seeing the "frailing" description in the Bastin book, but I'm not sure exactly what he meant by it, if in fact he meant it to describe a particular technique or just the impression that BBQ Bob's sound left on him.? I'm not sure I hear anything in his style that's related directly to banjo playing, but I can't totally rule it out - the banjo is played so many different ways that anything is possible!? I don't think that what BBQ Bob is doing has anything *at all* to do with what some players currently call "frailing" on the guitar.? Google Steve Baughman for an example - not my cup-o-tea at all.

One thing I think I hear in spots is a chugga-chugga sound that I usually associate with Maybelle Carter's guitar playing.? She gets that sound by picking a bass note with her thumb and then brushing quickly with her index finger across the treble strings in an up-down-up motion.? I'm not totally sure that BBQ Bob is doing anything like that in places, but it's something I'd try just to rule it out.

On stuff like She's Gone Blues or Atlanta Moan, his sound seems more conventional in the right hand - thumb on the bass while the finger works the melody.? There are occasional bass runs and spots where he drops the bass.? On Barbecue Blues, it sounds like there could be a combination of the chugga-chugga pattern I described above, some heavy thumb-strums and some string-snapping in the bass.? In California Blues, it also sounds like the chugga-chugga pattern is being used.? It'd be possible to get that sound with a flatpick, too...

Ignatznochops, do you have a particular tune that you're interested in?? Since BBQ Bob seems to me to have more than one approach to playing it might help to try and suss out one specific tune, then build on lessons learned there to figure out other stuff.

Rivers said he had a bunch of BBQ Bob that he plays - maybe he'll chime in here.

Edited to add:? Another guy whose input would be interesting (in addition to JohnM - of course!) is Joshua Jacobson - he plays guitar for Cora Mae Bryant and has made a real study of the Georgia players.? You can check out what he's done here.

[Ignatznochops]

One tune that I really like is Yo Yo Blues. I think its full of what you're calling that "chugga chugga". I've heard a couple o people cover that one to similar effect, inlcuding Paul Rishell. Not even sure what tuning it's in. I think he plays it in open E, but I can't imagine BBQ Bob's Stella being up to that kind of abuse on a regular basis. If somebody could figure out the tuning and chords on this that would be great...

Joe

[frankie]

Yo Yo Blues is played in spanish tuning - seems like he's tuned to about Aflat.? Tuned from low to high, that would be:

Eflat
Aflat
Eflat
Aflat
C
Eflat

If you're using a real Stella or Stella repro 12-string, I wouldn't tune to those pitches unless you first strung it up with some lighter strings.? There's some suggestions in this thread.

In YYB, he fingers the IV7 chord as if it were a C chord in std tuning - but because he's in spanish, the note at the 3rd fret of the fifth string ends up being the flat7 - a very cool sound.? It sounds to me like he plays a riff where the V chord would be, not really articulating the chord at all.? He also starts the verse on the IV chord rather than the I - maybe not totally unusual, but worth noting.

I agree that BBQ Bob's guitar probably suffered from tuning high regularly.? He probably owned several guitars during the course of his career.

Edited to add:? you might be more familiar with the notion of spanish tuning as "G tuning" (DGDGBD).? I like to use the names spanish and vestapol (for D and E tunings) because the actual pitches don't mean much, just the relationships between the strings.? Simlarly, std tuning to me means a tuning where each string is tuned in 4ths, except the 2nd string, which is a 3rd.? Std tuning doesn't necessarily mean that the guitar has to be tuned to concert pitch.

[Rivers]

Like most people whose songs I try to steal they end up a lot different when I play them but I admit I have listened a lot to Bob. My observations: Check out the timing. Bob had a lot of feel and subtle variation, 'dancey' is how I would describe it.

Other than that my only advice would be to close your eyes and imagine you are a runaway musical combine harvester, red wine may enhance the experience.

[frankie]

Hi Joe - I had to do a lot of driving over the weekend, so I listened a bunch to Yo Yo Blues and just figured a little bit of it out quickly.? To get the chugga-chugga sound on the IV chord and I chord, I ended up alternating between my thumb and index, aiming more for the middle or bass strings rather than the treble strings (this is basically what uncle bud suggested earlier).? In a four beat measure, the pattern would be like:

Beat:? 1? &? 2? &? 3? &? 4? &? 
?         T? I?  T? I?  T?  I?  T? I

On beats 1 and 3, a bass note is picked.? Beats 2 and 4 are heavily brushed - I think the rhythmic emphasis really falls here.? The attached file might help to some degree - I ran through the basic verse twice slowly with no singing.

On the first part of the verse, you can think of the thumb and index as having a dialogue between the bass notes and treble notes played with the slide.

Sorry about the out of tune guitar - I tuned to match his recording, but the strings I have on that guitar currently stay in tune better at a higher pitch.

[Prof Scratchy]

On the question of those barbecue strings again, I came across this in the old Agram vinyl box set.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[waxwing]

Looks kinda like unisons everywhere but the bass course which would seem to be an octave. Yet another permutation to try. Making the long assumption that he is in at least a playing position, it's interesting to note that he's up around the sound hole for that wide open sound he employs.
I also note the guitar has a 6 pin bridge similar to my Sovereign ("Barbecue Bob" Grand Concert size). Thanks Scratch, I never looked at that pic so close.
All for now.
John C.

[Richard]

There has always seemed to be a touch of mystery around 12 string guitars and showing my ignorance what is the rational behind the tuning?

[Cambio]

I think that there was never a standard for 12 string because they were somewhat rare.  I doubt that one could have walked into a music store in the 20's and bought a set of strings for a 12 string guitar, so the guys who played them just had to wing it (sort of like they do now).  Most of the old twelves did have long scales, between 26 1/2" and 27", so it can be safe to assume that they were meant to be tuned down to B or C.   There were ones with short scales, but Bob's wasn't one of them.   I think it's safe to assume that Leadbelly, living in Texas, had contact with Mexican bajo sexto players, and that they influenced his playing and thinking of the instrument.  The wierd thing is that there wasn't more of a standard in Atlanta, where there the largest concentration of  old twelve string players were located and had contact with one another around the  Weaver household.  McTell certainly tuned down, but BBQ Bob is an enigma.  Maybe he just put on two standard six string sets and tuned it way up to suit his singing voice because he didn't want to bother with a capo. 
To me, the fact that there was no standard is what makes it such an intriguing instrument.