Topic: Fiddle tuning for blues

[nixpix]

My wife has a violin that I'd like to take a stab at playing blues ala Mississippi Sheiks and eventually Lonnie Johnson, etc. What tuning did Lonnie Chatmon use? Standard violin tuning (gdae) or some other tuning? I know that apart from classically trained musicians, old-time fiddlers played in all kinds of tunings such as gdgd and others. Any help is appreciated.

[banjochris]

The Lonnies played in standard tuning. Lonnie Chatmon played a lot in F, B-flat and E-flat, so you'll get your intonation practice. I believe all of Andrew & Jim Baxter's stuff is in standard as well. If you listen to Lusk, Gribble and York or Frazier and Patterson or Joe and Odell Thompson, black musicians who play old-time more than blues, they use the common cross-key tunings of adae and aeae (sometimes tuned low to gcgd or gdgd) as well as standard tuning at various pitches. Good luck with that stuff, it's a lot of fun.
Chris

[nixpix]

Thanks banjochris! Now I have a sense of direction. I actually took lessons for a couple of months recently. But I had to stop as I didn't have enough time. We'll see how I progress.

[Dr. G]

Hey nixpix and banjochris,

If you haven't had much experience playing violin (or "fiddle"), nixpix, I would urge you to give a fling to one of the "open tunings" mentioned by banjochris -- AEAE (also called "sawmill" by the old-timers) or GDGD. You can sound half-decent in one of these tunings in about one-tenth (one-twentieth?) the time it'll take you to sound half-decent in standard (GDAE) tuning.

These tunings lend themselves wonderfully to double stops ( = bowing two strings at once) and easy-to-attain, good-sounding harmonies that are much more difficult in standard tuning. In my book, the only thing in the world that sounds worse than out-of-tune banjo playing is out-of-tune fiddle playing -- and it is soooo easy to play out of tune in standard (GDAE).

I speak from personal experience: 10 years of violin and viola lessons, and many years in orchestras and chamber groups...and yet I TOTALLY sucked at anything remotely like blues or old-timey fiddle until I discovered -- quite by accident borne of necessity -- that if I re-tuned the dang thing to mimic my open G or D on the guitar (or even my banjo f-tuning) I didn't suck anywhere near so bad...in fact it suddenly became kinda fun, and at times didn't even sound half bad.....And as if that weren't enough, I was suddenly able to concentrate more on my bowing -- rather than on my intonation.

The above is not intended as an indictment of learning to play a violin "properly" (i.e., in standard tuning) -- but rather as a "bridge" until you're somewhat accomplished...and as an insurance policy against becoming prematurely discouraged.

And don't forget to put PLENTY of rosin on that bow!

Dr. G

[Muddyroads]

If you have never played a fiddle before, be ready for some culture shock.  The bow is not a pick and will not behave like one.  As far as tunings, fiddlers were fiddlers.  When Lomax, et al went looking for Black musicians, blues was what they wanted, not necessarily all of the other music they played in those string bands was  blues.  We know they played a wide range of material.  Check out Joe Thompson.  It would not be out of line to think that  the Black fiddlers used many tunings like their white counterparts. After all, fiddling is fiddling.  Anyway most blues does well in the standard tuning.  Don't be put off by keys like F and Bb.  Get comfortable in G, D and A.  Then move to C, then E and F.  Bb is not as hard as the bluegrass key, B.  But they all get easier with repetition.  So now that you have picked out your new grinding wheel,  put the metal to the wheel get going.  Most  of all... have fun.

Muddy

[Cleoma]

I agree that starting out in cross-tuning is a good way to go.  The advantage is that you can hit (either on purpose or by accident) any adjacent string and it sounds really good!  Also the whole fiddle vibrates and you just get a bigger sound, which is  especially nice if you have to play by yourself.  You won't find  much if any of the old time BLUES fiddling done that way but there is a ton of oldtime Appalachian fiddle music in various alternate tunings. Ask if you want me to post a list of some of my favorites.  I would start with GDGD (low to high) which is the equivalent of AEAE.  The reason for GDGD vs. AEAE is that 1) it's a mellower sound and 2) some fiddles really don't like having the low strings tuned up a whole step.  This, by the way, is usually known as "cross G", at least around here.  I've never heard it referred to as "sawmill" but I'm sure these names are regional. Other alternative tunings that I use fairly often include AEAC# -- known as Calico or Black Mtn. Rag tuning -- and GDAD.

Two bluesy tunes, both from SW Louisiana, that I like to play in cross tuning are Blues A Bebe (from Bebe Carriere) and the Wayne Perry Blues which I believe is mis-identified as either a waltz or a two step.  I'm pretty sure that Wayne Perry plays it in standard, but it goes great in cross.  Ditto Blues a Bebe.

Playing in cross tuning is a great way to start getting a grip (so to speak) on bowing, it is much more forgiving than standard tuning.  But, if you really want to play blues on the fiddle, you'll eventually want to learn to play in standard tuning.

As has been noted, for some reason a lot of the oldtime blues fiddlers (including Lonnie and Bo Chatmon and Clifford Hayes) did play out of "difficult" keys like Bb and Eb.  I believe that one reason they may have done this is that they may have played everything out of closed position (i.e. not using the open strings at all).  This makes it super easy to change keys, whereas if you use open strings, you have to figure out a completely different fingering if you change keys (esp. if you change by just one step).  We worked on learning to play in closed fingering at Port Townsend last year with the fiddle class and it proved to be really useful when, at a jam, the fiddlers had to play in A flat....no problem!!

I am disappointed not to be at PT this summer, but I've had a run of several years in a row -- in fact I've lost track but I think it has been at least 4 years in a row, so I guess it's time to give someone else a turn.  I hope they will ask me back for 2008.  I believe that Andrea Lewis will be teaching both fiddle and mandolin this year.
Suzy T.