Topic: Tappin' That Thing: Blues Mandolin by Key

[frankie]

Playing often with a piano would explain it, so would playing with wind instruments - I remember reading that Bo's first instrument was the clarinet...  in any event, they *are* dead and we'll never know why for certain, although we can be reasonably assured that they were no strangers to at least F, B-flat and E-flat.

One question for you Alex - what makes you assume that B-flat is awkward on the mandolin?  Here's a little experiment:  Play a G scale on the mandolin, then, starting from the same place you started for G, play the notes of the B-flat scale.  Use any open strings that are convenient, then tell me which notes are different.  Do the same for C and E-flat, then for D and F.

The upshot of it is this:  If G, C and D are "easy," then B-flat, E-flat and F must be "easy" too.

[uncle bud]

Certainly anyone whose training came from some kind of band tradition, or from someone from within that tradition, would be exposed to playing in such keys. Maybe the question should not be why do it but why wouldn't they do it? It sort of relates back to what I said earlier about my not thinking of the mandolin as a guitar taking me further in my learning the instrument.

As for chords, Alex, Bb can be pretty friendly. Also, it's worth keeping in mind that a lot of chords in these songs are really chord partials. You're not going for those big bluegrass chopped chords.

Anyway, in Bb, you can get a I chord with one finger:

x01x
x011

or 2 fingers:

301x

You can get a IV chord with 1 finger:

x11x
011x

or 2 fingers:

x113
0113

You can get a V chord with one finger:

x30x

or 2:

x301
230x

etc. etc. They're all easy as pie. Note the frequent open strings as well.

One minor thing I'd correct you on. McCoy wasn't necessarily tuned to concert pitch. He might have played out of F but sounded in E and so on.

[waxwing]

If you approach a guitar more as a single string instrument, say the way Leadbelly does with his strong use of bass runs, you may not think of F as an awkward key on guitar, either. And he uses it a fair amount.

So, if you make your primary concern scales and not chords (leave those for the guitar players), as you say Frank: they're all 'closed' positions. And some of the seemingly unlikely ones have little bonuses.

Actually, the reason I got interested in this is 'cause I'm tryin' to get Miller to play some of the Son Simms fiddle parts on his mando instead of chording along with the CP guitar parts. I was wondering what key would be easiest for him and I was confused 'cause CP is playing E positions tuned up to F, which I guess I assumed was not great for fiddle or mando. But now it makes perfect sense that Charley would tune up 1/2 a step most of the time. E becomes F and Spanish becomes Bb, both handy for fiddle, mando, piano, etc.. Miller could play in F, as, I assume, Simms did?

Thanks folks.

Wax

[uncle bud]

Yes indeedy, Wax. Makes sense to me.

[uncle bud]

Blackberry Rag and Alabama Rag by the Three Stripped Gears are both in C. Which, with 1931 Depression Blues and Black Bottom Strut both in F, completes the recorded output of those enjoyable fellas, I believe.

[modgar]

Wax,
I understand what you mean when you say E becomes F, but you lose me when you say Spanish becomes Bb.  Could you explain that a little?
Thanks,
Gary

[waxwing]

Sure, modgar. I'm suggesting that his many accompaniments in Spanish tuning, which many (tho' not all by a long shot) at that time seemed to tune to A, tuned a step higher, as Charlie sometimes did, would be in the key of Bb.

Actually, checking Andrew's excellent page on Weeniepedia:

http://weeniecampbell.com/wiki/index.php?title=Charley_Patton_Guitar_Keys_and_Positions

You can see that when he played with Son Simms he was playing in E pitched to F# (so I guess I'm assuming Simms was tuned up a half step himself?) and Tuned Spanish anywhere from A up to B.

I guess it's an assumption, but I think, likely that Charley would have tuned for Spanish (and for E standard) to fit with other instruments, fiddle, mando, whatever.

Wax

[uncle bud]

The Birmingham Jug Band plays German Blues in F. Boy, they had a fabulous sound.

edited to add: Turns out they did more than that in F. Much of their recorded output falls in that position.

The Wild Cat Squawl - F
Birmingham Blues - F
Getting Ready For Trial - F
Giving It Away - F (pitched at E)
Kickin' Mule - F

[waxwing]

You're right, Andrew, the BJB is killer. And that reminds me of another fantastic "unknown" (B&GR) mando player. I'm not really a mando player, but maybe I'm curious for a friend. -G- Anyone checked out the playing position of the mando player in the King David Jug Band? Some of their material is available on the two Ruckus Juice and Chitlins CDs from Yazoo or on Document. His work on Tearin' it Down, for one, is stellar.

Wax

[uncle bud]

I agree, the unknown mandolin player for King David's Jug Band is fabulous, as is the band itself. I haven't worked out the keys for their material, though did do a preliminary check awhile ago. I remember some of it being pitched in keys like E and B, which makes me at least suspect F and C. Sweet Potato Blues is just great.

[MuddyBuddy]

Don't forget that Yank Rachell, and probably lots of other players not bound to a tuned instrument like piano or harmonica, tuned their instruments in relation to their voices. Yank often played in what he called G, which could be around E or F, depending on how his voice was. He then played G positions chords and licks but the actual key was E. I do this myself and have one standard tuned mando and one tuned down to E for singing in A and E and playing licks in G and C positions. so instead of GDAE, I tune it EBF#C#.

cheers
Bert (hooked on blues mandolin)

[uncle bud]

Hi Bert - Haven't got to Yank yet in this thread, probably because a) there's a lot of it and b) you have to tune down as you say.

For the Yank experts, did he ever not tune the mandolin down? Is there material where he's tuned to somewhere around concert pitch?

[banjochris]

I don't think Yank tuned down at all on the recordings with Sleepy John and Jab Jones back in the 20s-30s. They're either in G or C, at least all the ones I've played along with.

Also, in the video of Sleepy John and Yank on You Tube playing Mailman, they're both in G position, although I've never checked the absolute pitch. Perhaps Yank started tuning down later as he met more players likely to play in E or A, and Sleepy John pretty much stuck to G and C.
Chris

[Lyndvs]

There`s an interesting article here:

http://www.mandozine.com/music/bluesmando/rachell.php

it discusses Yank`s career and his tunings/techniques etc.
lyndvs.
   

[waxwing]

Dang! Rich doesn't quite answer our question, tho'.

I was always under the same impression as BC about him being around G with Sleepy John in the early recordings, Broken Hearted, Divin' Duck, and going to E tuning later, when he got with Sonny Boy. Checking B&GR, his pre war recordings with Sleepy John were all before '31. He did a bunch of sessions with Dan Smith in '34 and then didn't record until '38 and then '41 with Sonny Boy. So he had plenty of time to change in between sessions. Rich's example, Shotgun Blues, was recorded with Sonny Boy in '41.

I couldn't possibly suss his playing position, but I listened to the two tracks with Noah Lewis ('30)(don't have the SJE box yet) and, would you believe, they seem to be pitched around F (Ticket Agent) and Bb (New Minglewood)?!?!

Wax